Carin Rockind 0:07
Are you ready for true happiness, for deep fulfillment, for feeling alive on purpose and

in control of your life again?

It's time to be the bold, brilliant,

beautiful woman you

were born to be. Welcome to the PurposeGirl Podcast, and women's happiness and life purpose expert Carin Rockind. And I'm going to teach you how to live on purpose, feel alive, and be happy in every aspect of life. I'm going to get real about my life and interview women who are living on purpose, so that you can finally live yours. Welcome to the show.

Hello, hello, hello, my PurposeGirls. So when we go back a few months ago, about six months ago now to when George Floyd was brutally murdered... conversation, passion, action really bubbled up. Finally, taking a stance against racism, not just stepping to the side, but truly saying I'm an anti racist. And so many of us, myself included, you know that I've talked about this topic a number of times, you know, I've had a number of guests on this topic. It's so many of us, myself included, truly seeing where our own blind spots are. Right? We don't know what we don't know. And we can never know what it's like to step into the shoes of someone who is black, brown. If you are straight, you'll never know what it's like to step into the shoes of an LGBT lesbian, a gay person, someone who's transgender. We'll never know exactly what that's like.

Of course, we have our own experience. And when George Floyd was murdered, the same time as Breonna Taylor was brutally murdered, and so many others, I myself really started to look in the mirror where I before had said, "I'm not racist. Of course, I'm not racist." I didn't even see myself as white, I've got a big piece of news for all of you - being Jewish, didn't even see myself as white, I saw myself as Jewish. And it was truly then I don't know if I should be embarrassed or proud or just honest. It was truly this summer, right? While I'm eight and a half months pregnant, and all of this is happening in our country in the world that I looked in the mirror, and I said, I'm white. Holy cow. And with that whiteness has come privilege that I was not even aware of.

And it's time that I really start being aware of it, so that I can do my part. And frankly, all of us, myself included, could do a lot more to truly create an equal beautiful, prosperous, abundant world, for our black, brown people of color, friends, sisters, neighbors. And so this is a conversation that I'm going to keep having on the PurposeGirl Podcast. And it's a conversation that I need to keep having with myself and everywhere. And what I love about my guests today is that they came together to really highlight this experience of what is it like to truly be an ally. And to bring together one of my guests is white, one of my guests is black, and they're the of best friends and highlighting in their incredible podcast, The Kinswomen, highlighting the need the experience for all of us to step up and do better with anti-racism. And so I cannot wait to introduce you to my guests.

Let me introduce you to Yseult and Hannah: they are the founders of The Kinswomen, a podcast and a platform that aims to bridge the gaps between women of color and white women and have conversations on race and racism from a place of love and compassion. Kinswoman has been named "Best of 2020" by Elle, Cosmo, Marie Claire. In addition to their podcast, they facilitate anti racism courses, and they work with companies on their anti racism journeys. Yseult, Hannah, welcome to the PurposeGirl Podcast!

Yseult Polfliet 4:39
Thank you so much. We're so happy to be here.

Hannah Summerhill 4:42
Thank you, Carin. It's an honor. Thank you.

Carin Rockind 4:45
Thank you. So the two of you came together. And some might say, you know what, "what is a white woman doing teaching anti racism? Like how is this even happening?" The two of you came together because these are actually the conversations that we need to have - one to one, right? And we all need to learn. And we all need to support. And we all need to lift up our black and brown sisters and brothers. And so let's begin with how the two of you connected. Because you have a cool story right about your husband, Hannah. And so let's let's start there.

Hannah Summerhill 5:21
So Yseult I met two years ago at an event at The Wing, which was an all female co working space, based in New York and across the country, at an event about bridging the gaps between white women and women of color. And I was really interested in - I was on my anti racism journey at the time, but I went to this event, and stayed quiet. I stayed in the back. And I remember Yseult getting up to the mic, and calling out the white women by saying this is supposed to be a conversation between women of color and white women, why are the white women being so quiet? And I recognize that I'd really been a viewer and I hadn't showed up to participate in what was a conversation between the races. I wasn't wanting to take up space. But I was using that as an excuse, because the conversation was explicitly about bridging the gaps. So when I ran into Yseult a couple weeks later, at The Wing, I said, "Hey, I'm really interested in continuing this conversation, would you like to come over, I'm hosting a few women from the event in my living room so we can start this conversation?" And from those in person meetings, they grew and grew and grew. And then one day, we decided we need to bring this conversation to a larger audience. And that's when we started The Kinswomen Podcast.

Carin Rockind 6:41
It's so incredible, I really hand it to you, Yseult, for standing up, and being like, "hey, people, we're supposed to be having a conversation!"

"Why? Why aren't you standing up?"

Yseult Polfliet 6:54
My remark was more so about how the conversation was directed and how it seemed like, once again, people of color were supposed to teach white people. And there's no, there was no accountability from the white side, to want to actually be active in that process of change. And in I mean, I don't think that I'm, I need to be praised for speaking up. I think that history and events throughout the world have shown that, you know, unfortunately, people of color have to be the voice of like speaking up for ourselves or speaking up for the cause. So I don't think it's even special that I said anything. I think that like, I'm more so glad that it gave birth to like me meeting Hannah and us having this like follow up conversation and making a podcast out of it. And so that's, that's where I think I find solace in that moment.

Carin Rockind 7:58
Mm hmm. And, Hannah, tell us what you were experiencing what was going through your mind and heart as you decided, "you know what, I'm going to really continue this conversation, I'm going to be active."

Hannah Summerhill 8:12
Well, knowing this is the PurposeGirl Podcast, I felt like I had found my purpose in life. A couple years ago, when I started waking up to my own white lens, my own sense of white centrality and the white supremacy that we live in. And I think most people want to live in truth, they want to see the truth. And once you wake up to it, it's hard to unsee it. So I felt like I had slowly started to push the veil aside when it came to whiteness, and the incredible disparities and and inequities that we have in this country. And so once I started to see it, I was like, I almost felt like a bulldozer, like I needed to just keep going. So that was part of my journey. And I just knew that for so many white women, especially white women who call themselves liberals or feminists. And I'm also Jewish, I know that a lot of white Jewish women sometimes give themselves a pass. So I can relate to what you were saying at the top of the show, when it comes to our own culpability and our own privilege. So I wanted to speak the truth. And I wanted to, you know, get raw and messy and I really had no idea what I was doing. I wasn't a facilitator, but I just knew that the conversation needed to be had. And I learned as I went, definitely had some missteps along the way. And this is a journey for me, and I'm very open and vulnerable about that. But I hope in my own vulnerability, that I'm able to inspire other white people, that it's okay to fail in public, that that's part of the process of being an ally. Yseult and I did an event last night and she reminded the white people there which is always a great reminder: it's like white people think that they need to be experts at everything, including race, and we really know nothing about race. That's the education starts.

Yseult Polfliet 10:02
Mm hmm.

Carin Rockind 10:05
We do know nothing. I know I, I know nothing, and I so appreciate you sharing your own experience as a Jewish woman. And like I said, it's not even like I gave myself a pass. It's more like, I really never thought of myself as white. I identify so strongly as Jewish. And my grandparents were Holocaust survivors. And that's just how I strongly identify, and how clear that my lens was clouded completely, you know, shaded if you will, because I clearly have a privilege that that others don't.

Yseult Polfliet 10:40
Yeah, I mean, it is important to mention that, like Ashkenazi Jews have conditional whiteness. So it's like, I, I make it a purpose to talk about this. Just because I am in I am Jewish, and I am part of a Jewish community. And I have these conversations with Jewish friends that are not fully Ashkenazi, but also Maasai or Sephardic or African or Indian. So it's, it's, I am, I'm present in that space. And -

Carin Rockind 11:13
Yeah

Yseult Polfliet 11:13
- I think that it's important to, to share for non Jews, that white Jews are not white white, they're there to have a conditional whiteness that says that you get to be white until you're not and you're not white, you claim your space as a Jew, or that you talk about going to vacation in Israel or you say that you love Tel Aviv and and then it becomes a conversation that's like, oh, but you know, this weird conversation that becomes like a subtle, like embedded space of - that's like embedded with anti semitism like subtle anti semitism, that, you know, if you are familiar with it, or if you're Jewish, you know that that has nothing to do with like, political conversation, but everything has to do with like, anti semitism. So I'm really conscious to say that Ashkenazi Jews are white, but conditionally only until they're not white enough, until someone

Carin Rockind 12:14
finds us not white enough. Exactly an Ashkenazi for those of you who aren't familiar with these terms, Ashkenazi Jews are Jews from Eastern Europe, Sephardic are from Middle East. There's a term you used, Yseult, that I'm not familiar with?

Yseult Polfliet 12:28
Maasai

Carin Rockind 12:29
Yeah, where where are those Jews from?

Yseult Polfliet 12:33
Sephardic is more of like the Spaniard Jews that had to flee in that area. And like Maasai is like, also North Africans and, and things like that.

Carin Rockind 12:44
Thank you. Totally. All of my years of Hebrew school, never discussed that. So thank you for really filling me in there. And Yseult - So when you went to Hannah's apartment, what were you thinking? What were you feeling?

Yseult Polfliet 13:01
I mean, I thought it was interesting that she was, she was doing this on her own. And, and I thought that, like, it was cool for her to make that initiative to create space within, like her own community. And I thought, I really thought it was like a good initiative. And actually, I only got to go to go to one event. And then I went to Israel for three months. But I went right before, and but I kept up with, you know, I was on the mailing list. And so within the three months, I saw that she kind of like, continued to doing this. And I thought that was really cool. And when I came back, was when we talked about having a podcast. Which the idea of the podcast was really about creating space and making the story of people of color, more diverse than what we're used to, and like, bringing humanity to people of color as well. And, and having like, an intellectual conversation that's like, linked to the humanity and being an other. And so bringing in stories are diverse and eclectic, and, and just rich, and it's a narrative, where, you know, when we do talk about issues like racism or anti semitism, it's always related to, you know, a solely on statistics, like, you know, this amount of people died and this amount of people are suffering and there has been a murder in someone else, you know, and it's at the end of the day, like, it feels so far away from what people can relate to, it becomes numbers. And so there's no emotional appeal to people's like perception of of people of color. It's like your statistics, your number and then when you're not what great They use you to make a point that they're not all suffering. And so I think that like bringing stories that are relatable, that are diverse, and they are inclusive, was like my personal motivation to have a space where we could we could have these conversations.

Carin Rockind 15:21
This is so beautiful and so important, because we each have the same human heart. And we have different skin. Right? And so we do experience life differently. And I think this is why for me, Breonna Taylor, is someone I think about almost every day. She was so human to me, I think you as you just said, Yseult. And I know that there are countless, countless countless people who have been murdered, have been raped have been violated. And when I think about her, she was one of - it's like she was a sister. And I feel like a lot of women this summer had that experience. Maybe that was part of us waking up to something we should have woken up to a long, long, long time ago. So when you talk about the humanity and something that you said earlier, Yseult, is you know, you're not here to teach us. Definitely we have to do all on our own. And yet, in your podcast, you do teach you share so that we can learn.

Yseult Polfliet 16:32
Yeah, I mean, I think that the way I share is by telling my story and like, I think that people like I've we share this when our conversation, but it's more so like therapeutic for me too when we have this conversation. It's not solely for me to teach white people, but it's actually for me to deal with the anguish in the in the controlled rage that I have and living in a society that sees me as an other. And I don't ever want people to think that I'm out here like trying to save white people or teach white people because I don't I wouldn't like it's it's work that we're we have to do collectively, in our own way in our own time and in our own communities. But for me, Kinswomen is a way for me to heal from the things that I see in my experience, or that other people like me experienced as well. So it's trying to tell people like I am human. And there's other people that experiences and they're human too. And it's not this like romanticized image of like, yeah, we need to be brothers and sisters, we all love to love each other. It's like, I am human and deserve space. And I deserve respect. And you have to give it to me. And I'm claiming my space by having this voice. It's not to please or to say or to help white people at all.

Carin Rockind 17:52
Mm hmm.

Hannah Summerhill 17:53
I think what is interesting about our spaces, we focus on the cross racial dialogues to a lot. So the where the intersection of whiteness and blackness, you know, in our space, specifically, and everything else that we bring to the table as women. That's a dialogue that I think doesn't get had a lot is how do we bridge these gaps cross racially, because I think white people just don't know how to talk to black people. And they see a lot of white people see blackness is the great racial other. And we were had this great conversation last night where one of our students just said very directly, white people, he said, I feel scared and fearful around black people, I don't know what to say. And so sometimes that will come out through, you know, overly complimenting them, or overly trying to make sure that they know that I'm a good white person. And we see so many of our interactions are really based in fear, fear of saying the wrong thing, fear of not being seen as a good white person. And the fears really been what has separated us as racist too. And we in our work, we go really deep into the societal conditioning of racism, and the political motivations. For me on my journey, as an ally, the history, learning history has been the most important thing and seeing context, because one of the things that Yseult brings to our conversation is she's a really global perspective, having grown up in Africa and Europe and living in America. So I think we in America have this like super centralized, you know, vision of ourselves, and of our own supremacy, even if it's subconscious. So getting into like, the layers of that is something really interesting in our work, but we have to go back to the roots, like we really have to go back to our roots. And that's for me, what's been the most illuminating thing because you can't heal what we have happening. If you don't reconcile with the past. It's like we know that when it comes to the, you know, to Jews in Germany, there's been reparations made. I call for reparations to African Americans in our country. This country was built on black labor. And 400 years later, we're still not paying black people equally. They should be paid more than what white people are paid, they should be paid back pay. That sounds like a radical idea to a lot of people. But we need to be thinking radically when we're having this conversation, because clearly what we've been doing hasn't hasn't been working.

Carin Rockind 20:24
No, it doesn't work. It doesn't work. There's, there's so much in what you just said, I want to unpack a lot of what you just said. One is the fear and the conversation. And, you know, you nailed it. I, as soon as you said that, it's like I could feel in my own body. Oh, yeah, I have some of that for sure. Because I want to be respectful. I don't even know that I need anyone to call me like a good white person. I just want to be respectful. And sometimes, I'm not sure. Am I going to say something that is disrespectful without me knowing, like, when I was talking with a friend of mine This summer, and she is Korean American? And I said to her, I don't think I'm white. She said, What are you talking about? Look at yourself. She, and we went into this conversation, she couldn't believe that I hadn't seen myself that way. And so I didn't want to offend her, you know, and we're really good friends. So we could have that conversation. And, and I, and I think that's it is, we don't want to I don't want to speak for other people. I know, I don't want to offend. I want to be respectful. And you're so right, Hannah, that means that underneath is a fear. Is a fear. And so how do we move past that? And then I absolutely after we connect on this? I absolutely want to talk about the history because it's critical.

Yseult Polfliet 21:37
Yeah, I mean, I think the fear, the fear is the fear of like messing up because you want and if, if your prerogative is to be liked, and to be appreciated, and to be given, like, some type of like sticker or cookie for doing good, is like you're missing the point. And so with everything that we do in life, where we're learning new things, we're not it's, I mean, it's like saying, I want to ride a bike, and I don't know how to do it. And then you expect to like, No, but I want to go on the bike and like the first time I'm going to do great, it's like, no, that's just not how it goes. The whole point of it is respecting the process of learning. And respecting that. On the other hand, on the other side of this, there's an impact on people of color. And so like making sure that we hold ourselves accountable, that we have the conversation, honest conversation with our own community, and not with people of color, because it's too draining, and it's too much of a burden to carry on people. And then also, like just admitting that we don't know. And that's that's the thing. It's like, a lot of the time, you know, people go on the journey of allyship wants to be given that like medal right away. It's like in where where do you just have one conversation and someone can just like, make you like, feel like you're doing great. This is years and years and years of a system that's been put in place that's trickled down and how people think it people act and feel. And so it's going to take so much more time and an effort and genuine care to want to like unpack that. So it's -

Carin Rockind 23:14
100%. And there's no metal, none of us are getting any medal. There's no medal to be had. And we need to be doing this. Because we genuinely want to we want to do this we we know it's the right thing. To your point Hannah about we owe back. Right? I mean, even thinking about the election that we just had. I'm like 100% it is people of color is black Americans that got the Senate it is black Americans that got Joe Biden in. And I'm like, we I owe you. What do we need to do you know what I'm saying? 100%. That is my perspective.

Hannah Summerhill 23:50
Yeah, I mean, so it along with the fear, I just wanted to go back, we talk so much about discomfort and our work too. And just acknowledging that talking about race is uncomfortable. We start all of our events by just saying you might feel uncomfortable, you know, you might feel a little queasy, you might feel defensive, there might be awkward silences. That's all okay, there's none there. There's no perfect way, like Yseult, to do this process. And I think one of the values of white supremacy is perfectionism is urgency. And we need to just get away from that because it it it's antithetical to the antiracism journey. So acknowledging the discomfort always that's something that I have really needed to sit with, especially when I'm like called in and corrected and having to sit with that too and not have my immediate reflex be like, oh, but I didn't mean. No, no, we prior to prioritizing our work the doing well over meaning well, and then impact over the intention. And that's also like a shift. I think for a lot of people knowing that it's not enough to just sit and think I'm a good open minded person, there is no neutral stance when we when it comes to this work you're either working for or working against. And saying, I'm, I'm open, and I have friends of color, and I have gay friends or I am, you know, LGBTQ if, if you're, if you're white and you hold white privilege, you are definitely having you have an impact on those around you, even if you don't realize it, because of those subconscious beliefs. But yeah, we do owe people of color that our own working on ourselves, you know, and not expecting them to teach us and doing work for us. I read this great article, after all, this praise came out about Stacey Abrams and about black American saving us in the elections. And there was a woman who wrote this piece for The Washington Post that said, yeah, we saved you. But like, Who's saving us? You know, nobody is saving black women in this country. They're the lowest paid, they have the highest rate of female mortality, maternal mortality and infant mortality, who is saving them. So it's like, we know these stats in our mind. But last night, in our event, we were talking about like the everyday interactions, how do we as white people interact and bring that sense of centrality, to our interactions with our nannies with our Uber drivers with the people that we talk to them phone with the people at the checkout line, you can see this, like, these behaviors are so insidious, and routing that out individually, that's the most important journey, it's less about, like outward action. But first, it's like getting right in yourself. And recognizing this is where I've caused harm, these are all my biases, these are all my reflexive stereotypes. They exist. And then just working from there,

Carin Rockind 26:51
This is so powerful, I want to put like lights and a picture frame around it. For any of us who need this reminder to go on the wall, it's not about outward action. First, it is about your inner work. That's that is really, really powerful. Because I know a tendency for me, I think for other people, you know, it could be like, Alright, can I write a check? Or do I do to this rally? What can I do? Can I and and I think all those things are important and good. And, you know, and again, not for the medal, but just to do something, right. And the most important thing is to look for, where are the spots within me that I'm not even seeing? And to be honest about them?

Yseult Polfliet 27:35
Yeah

Hannah Summerhill 27:36
Yeah.

Yseult Polfliet 27:36
Yeah. And I think it's important. Right now, Hannah, you know, she said, you know, the interpersonal the interpersonal interactions that we have, and Hannah says nanny grocery store, and another another one, but it's also an Uber drivers. And this like, it's also your doctors, your black doctor, black lawyers, your black representatives, it's recognizing that in visibility, there's a lot of minorities are doing great things, and that it's not just the people that you see as in service to you, but also other people that seem like they are not experiencing racism, because they're very successful. And because they're doing really, really well. So like challenging what we think diversity around us looks like and how we are addressing them and impacting impacting them in the way we like, interact with them. And so like, for me, I emphasize on the interpersonal level of things, because, like, when we talk about racism, a lot of the time, we think that it's just a societal issue. And it's like, it's absolutely imperative for people that seek to become allies, to understand that you have a personal impact in how people of color around you or diversity around you feels. It's either the way you talk about like LGBTQ and you don't know if whoever is next to you, is gay or trans or whatever. It's knowing how we're complimenting No, we're dressing people that are visible minorities, or it's like whenever you're sitting and you don't know that this person is Jewish, and you make an anti semitic comment. It's absolutely holding yourself accountable on every moment possible, and not relying on the fact that society sucks. Like we know that society sucks, like there's things that have been implemented that prove that our society has been maintaining white supremacy, and it trickles out as individual but individual people, especially white people, have to take it upon themselves to make it a daily mantra to do better. To act better, to address people better, and it's like in tiny little things, it's in ways you see things is the way you think about things is the way you make things a default. To think that like, if you are talking, if you imagine, like the like you're in a, you're you're in the plane, and you imagine that the pilot is speaking, and the automatic thought is like, obviously, the pilot is white. Or it's like, you're imagining a doctor and you think that the doctor obviously is going to be white, all these little things make you fall into a hole that is fed through a society that's held through white supremacy. So it's, it's, it's so it's a lot, it's a lot. And it's a real process. And people have to make it a commitment, just like they make a commandment to become vegans, or become like animal activists or become like for recycling. Antiracism is like actually something that has to become the fiber of who you are as an individual and absolutely work on it everysingl

Carin Rockind 31:08
And melt multiple times a day, your analogy to recycling is so spot on it. It is so hitting me and let me tell you why. Because if I go back years ago, when I didn't recycle to Now, the other day, I saw a plastic bottle of my garbage. I'm like, Who put this in my garbage. Who put this in my garbage? Right? It's like now I can't even I can't even stand the idea. I look at every piece of plastic. Can this be recycled? Can this paper be recycled? I just sneezed into a Kleenex Can this be recycled? Like everything? Right?

Hannah Summerhill 31:41
Yeah.

Carin Rockind 31:42
So right. Like you're saying it's it's part of your fiber. And so what that analogy just really hit me Yseult, that this is the opportunity. Right? And it's actually a really cool opportunity. Yeah, I know, it sucks to say, I don't know, something, you know, it's not really fun for me to sit here and tell however many 1000s and 1000s of you that are listening, like, I'm an idiot about this stuff, I don't know. And I have to, because I don't Right? And it's on me to, to keep learning and especially now that I have a baby, because I owe it to him. And I owe it to his friends. And I owe it to the society, the generation that's coming to do better and to do better with him. You know, one of the things that strikes me all the time, as I think about it, are frankly, how segregated our communities are. Right? Yseult, tou're talking about the interpersonal, when I lived in New York, I truly felt like, I'm around everybody. And now, I'm in a burb of Philly. And across there is one street. And there are a lot of black people that are on one side of the street in a lot of white people who live on the other side of the street. And it's it's just blowing my mind. And what do we need to do about this? And can we just forget the street and all of our schools mix? And the inter personality isn't there? Right. I know you guys talk about, we're not even aware of how all the segregation came about. And of course, Hannah I'm just remembering, I want to get back to the history. You know, that I was reading on your Instagram, how Central Park came about tearing up a black neighborhood, like so wrong. We aren't even realizing that the ground that we're walking on did that?

Hannah Summerhill 33:26
Oh, yeah. Oh, it's so dark. When you get into your history. We need to reconcile with our own darkness as a country just you we have this like moral authority that just does not exist. But there's an awesome book that I recommend to everybody that I've recently finished, which Yseult heard me talk about called The Color of Law by Richard Rothstein, The Color of Law. You guys, it's one of those books that you read, and it stays with you forever, because it changes the way you see everything. It could not be a more important book for the anti racism journey. It talks about how segregation is not natural. It's government mandated. And when 6 million black Americans fled the Jim Crow South and the great migration from the early 1900s to about 1970. They congregated and these quote northern liberal cities like Chicago, Philadelphia and New York, and they were met with tons of racism from not just white people, but from European immigrants. And black communities were basically forced to live in only certain streets. If they moved and tried to integrate into white neighborhoods. They were bombed. This was up into the up into the 90s. In some areas, they were bombed, they were shot at. So there's a dark history of white people keeping black people out of their space, but also the government has mandated it's been supported in every way if you look at our highway system, our interstates were designed To run through the black neighborhoods, and not disrupt the white ones. So even our streets are racist, you know, our highways, we probably don't think about that when we're driving, oh, this was built, and purposely was avoided, avoided white suburbs, but drove what had to demolish black communities in order to be built,

Carin Rockind 35:22
Knowing how much of our infrastructure was built on the backs of black people, and hundreds of years ago, not even that long, built on the backs of black people who were enslaved against their will.

Hannah Summerhill 35:34
Right. And this is like, the crazy thing is, we still have this expectation that like we're doing black people a favor when we pay them equally, or when we hire them. And we have people who expect this work for free from Yseult all the time, we have white people coming to us who want absolution from a person of color. And they want us and, you know, Yseult specifically to be able to work for free. And it's like, Don't you recognize that this is the antithesis of what we're actually doing and talking about, it's like, people know that there's value to this work, but they don't want to actually exchange value or energy for it. So we need to rethink the way we imagine that too and I would challenge people who, you know, are listening who work in corporate America, make sure that your workspaces are paying people equally. There's so much opacity in, in the corporate system about salary. They're even like lies and myths, like, Oh, it's illegal to discuss your salary with other co workers. All of that's white supremacy, make sure your black colleagues are making the same if not more than the than the white colleagues. Because it definitely they had to jump over more barriers to get there. And just like, we need to just start having this lens and, and once we know the backstory, we we can act from a place that's much more grounded.

Yseult Polfliet 36:55
Yeah, the thing about this is like, it's also like, you know, when you look at the fact that your neighborhood is segregated, and you look at the school being segregated, and it's like, what then what do you do as a white person? And like, so I invite white people to look into, like, how can they advocate for people of color within the institution? Like, are they are black parents having a voice? are black kids being treated, right? And like, I don't want people to look at these facts and be like, Wow, this is so big, like, how, where do I start, you start in your own community, you start looking at like putting your kid into a school that is diverse, you start at like creating advocacy around the fact that your school is not diverse, like why why don't why isn't there enough, like kids of color in our, in our school, asking question, looking into the history of school, and like, also make it imperative that you don't want to put your child for example, in a school that has like, a super racist past, like, just like when people are like super vegans, and they're like, oh, now you know, I want to use all product, I like animal testing free. And then here you are people researching and forcing companies to have to be super open about their process of creating product, you have to have the same energy in regards to everything you're involved in. And so it's not just like, wow, this is crazy story. It's like, how does it How does it come through ?And I think that in our space, this is what we're doing? We're having interpersonal levels. So we're putting back the responsibility really in the hands of white people and say, Hey, you can do something on your own on your own, the own your own level. And without tackling it as like this, like big, scary monster. And I think that like, a lot of the people that come to our courses, I could see that they are on their journey, but they're also overwhelmed. And so when they learn things like this, they're like, wow, like, this is a huge mountain. Where do I start, you start at the bottom, you start right there on the floor, closest to the ground, with your family, with your friends, with where you buy, what you buy, who you hang out with? Like, who works in your company, how are they hiring right there on the ground. And it's only with more and more confidence and understanding of this dynamic of these things. And like how complex and, and, and messed up it is that you are able to climb up and face bigger and bigger monsters within this issue.

Carin Rockind 39:26
Mm hmm. It's so important to remember is if someone's listening to this, and I know I fall prey to this all the time, like purpose, let's go do something big, you know, like, let's go save the world. And that is where the overwhelm comes in. And what the heck do I know to do anything in this space, but what I do know is myself. What I do know is Listen, I have a six month old so I don't know school yet. But once he's in school, you know, I once he's in school, I do know and I do know and this is fantastic. So Thank you go to my next city. I don't even know how the city gets together. But like, what do we need to do to attract more diversity in this neighborhood? Like, at least among my friends, who we live here, we say this sucks. We don't want our kids growing up around white, all these white people. And yet we chose to live here for the schools and for blah, blah, blah, blah, right? And it's like, we don't want it to be just us that feels really icky. Yeah, you're saying start right within yourself. That's what I'm hearing and start within your community, like, start where you are, and then it's not so overwhelming.

Yseult Polfliet 40:35
And, and then you have more, you have a more bigger effect. Because then your world becomes more inclusive, your world becomes more enlightened. And and, and also, like the whole idea of white people saving and helping people of color is so flawed, because if we look at every single thing that has been made by either anti semitism work, or anti racism, or for women, it's like has been done by the people being oppressed, we don't need to be saved,

Carin Rockind 41:08
Right.

Yseult Polfliet 41:09
We just need you to do your work. So that you can become like a more useful ally in this work. Because like, if you come in, and you're like, Oh, my God, I know what to do. It's like, okay, but we, there's no space for me to deal with white supremacy, deal with white society, and then also take time to fight against that, and also teach you. So the more -

Carin Rockind 41:32
Well you're also trying to do your own work, live your own purpose, your own passion, may have nothing to do with this, raise your own family, have your own, you know, food on the table and hang out with your friends. Like, yeah, you don't need all of that, too. And you know, what's interesting is you're saying this, any population that has been oppressed, and this idea that any white person is going to come on their, their horse, it's like, if you hadn't oppressed us in the first place, right? Speaking as a woman, if you haven't tried to take away our power in the first place, you wouldn't have to come quote, unquote, think that you can, you know, save us or the same here with with black people. And the same with us Jewish population, if you hadn't tried to take us down, then you wouldn't have to come think that we need saving.

Hannah Summerhill 42:18
I think we need to make sure as white people to we're not recreating the wheel and centering ourselves and our efforts to be allies, because a lot of times are already things that probably exist, things might exist in your community that have been started and spearheaded by people of color that you just might not know, because it's not in your circle. So making sure that you know, we're not recreating the wheel. Because I do see that impulse. And, and it's not to say don't start your own thing, because, you know, we started our own thing, but making sure that where you are in your spaces that doesn't already exist. And as allies, we don't do anything alone. So like you said, it's not a mountain if you have community around you, because there's no room and allyship to to be a savior or to centralize yourself in the narrative. Because that's just not what antiracism is about. It's not about feeling like a really good white person. And one thing I want to mention about allies that we say a lot, we know a lot of people want to be allies, but we make the distinction that you can't call yourself an ally, it's up to the group to whom you want to be an ally, that gets to decide if you are one, and it's not this static thing. It's this movable thing that's ever evolving. So for me, Yseult gets to decide if I'm an ally to her. And maybe some days I do better than others. But hopefully, like overall, like I'm doing well, you know, and we have a relationship, and we've built trust where she can tell me when I'm not. And that's the other thing too. We talk a lot in our work about cross racial dialogues about building trust, because as white people, we can't expect people of color to trust us at all. We've given them every reason over hundreds of years to, to not. And we can't expect that. As soon as we're ready for this conversation now that we're ready, and we're awakened, like, everyone else is willing to talk to us and help us and know that we're on their side. So I was sharing before about how when I first started on my all ship journey, I was like, Well, how are people of color going to know that I'm an ally? Like, how are they going to know?

Carin Rockind 44:30
Should I wear a button?

Hannah Summerhill 44:31
Right if I don't share with them and you know, people people do wear buttons and they do you know, have flags and have signs and and whenever I see those, I'm like, I just hope behind that button. And behind that flag is like the real internal deep, dark shit because you know where we live in California. Now I've seen I've been happy to see these like, kind of upscale neighborhoods with Black Lives Matter signs, but I'm like, What are the conversations going on in that house? What are the conversations going on about the neighborhood? And who lives in the neighborhood? And what are the conversations about the school system? Allyship usually feels really messy, like Yseult said, when you get more competence, and you can start and you start to become more aware of the dynamics like, going up against your town going up against your boss, that requires so much basically, like breaking down of all the hierarchical stuff that we buy into, and you'll be met with so much resistance. Like when I first started doing this work, I was like, Who wouldn't want to, you know, be on this bandwagon, this is great. Because of white supremacy, we're gonna get so much pushback, and people are a little bit more open now than they were a year ago, because when we started doing this work, people didn't even like to hear the word racism, white people, you know, I, when I was working in corporate America, I was reported to HR for saying the words white people and white supremacy, because my white colleagues felt that that was inflammatory language. So we need to, you know, like we've said, Get comfortable being uncomfortable, but also know on our journeys, it's not going to be easy, it's going to be, we're going to come up against resistance, even, like I've come up against resistance with my mom and dad, who are by all means are like, you know, East Coast, Liberal Democrats, they have so many blind spots. So starting, you know, it always goes back to starting small, we have the most effect on the people that love us, and are closest to us. And you can't assume that like your best friend, or your mom, or your sister, or your husband doesn't have these, this, you know, internalized racism, because we all do.

Carin Rockind 46:40
We all do the things we don't even know. It's, it's ingrained. And it's going to be messy in because it's messy. A lot of people are like, I don't want to do that, right? Or I don't want to, why do I want to get involved in that? The thing is that you are involved, I am involved. There's no way around this. We live in the society, we are already involved. And as you said, we're either supporting or we're hurting, you know, in thinking about my great grandparents who died in concentration camps, people who just stayed silent, that was part of contributing to their death. Right? And so let that bit of history say, we have to get messy. We have to have the conversations and ask the questions that are going to be met with resistance, even if somebody doesn't like it. Because we know what happens when someone is silent. And it's not easy. I mean, it's it's not easy. I know, you teach classes to I know entrepreneurs, you go into corporations, give us the the gist or the outline of what you teach.

Yseult Polfliet 47:50
Yeah, are different clients that we have, when we do consultation, really differ. Like it depends on what kind of what kind of environment they're coming from. So depending on where they're coming from, we are adaptable to the conversation that they need to be had. So for example, we've had a client it was in like the art world. And the conversation was about like, how does the art world open up to the to diversity on a organizational level? And what is the culture around like, how we define in and perceive art, and art has been super, super whitewashed. And whenever it is coming from abroad, it's stolen art, like all the art that is not in Asia, South America, or Africa is stolen art, there's no one that like, sold it to them. They've taken that and put that in, in the in their museum. So it's compensations like that there -

Carin Rockind 48:50
Why do I get surprised by anything anymore? Yeah, of course. Right? Thank you.

Yseult Polfliet 48:57
Yeah. And so, I mean, the there's conversation to be had about racism and how it looks in absolutely everything that makes our society relevant. And so, but our classes, they're more interpersonal, and they're about really hard to address racism within an individual. So depending on where this these people are coming from it, it looks really different. Like some people are further down the line in their journey, and some people are just like beginning and like starting to scratch, you know, the surface. So we present a space that's open and safe, compassionate, and filled with love. And so but we we give, we we're very honest, and were we I mean, I personally do not sugarcoat anything, but I do believe that there's a way to be stern and the things that you share, and still be able to be to have like a productive conversation. So I think for most part, people come in not really realizing how much they're going to leave and realize that there's still so much that they have to work on. But like, that's not, that's not really a bad thing. It's it's almost like when you start therapy, and you're like, Okay, I know my problems, like, I have like abandonment issues. I have like separation issues, and I am I have mommy issues, and then you go to therapy. And then the therapist is like, wait can you talk about you when you were three years old, then you felt like, and you're like, wait, what this is like -

Carin Rockind 50:27
Oh, no, I don't also have daddy issues. And, and then the onion, the onion. But that's, that's life. Right? I have like the juice of living? Because every yes -

Yseult Polfliet 50:38
So more than like, Oh, it's a it's a class on racism. It's about like, where do you sit in that space? And what do you have to do as an individual, predominantly white people? And so they realize that they have so much work to do, and they give themselves permission to work on it, I think, because there's this urgency to have to, like, have resolution have solution have answers. And like a lot of them, I think, come in thinking that we're going to give them answers to be better white people. And it's like, actually, no, we're going to tell you where to go towards to be in a healthy space, to ask yourself how you can be a better white person. And it sounds crazy, but it's like, that's when people really start doing right. It's like when they start looking inward, and they start looking at things that they need to look into. So that they can make it better for me, and for my children and for my friends and for my family. And so then the responsibility is not like on this like big Boogeyman of of like societal issues, but rather an interpersonal kind of, of responsibility that you have to be on that, you know, awareness about racism, anti semitism, and all isms that have to do with, you know, race and, and identity, all of it.

Carin Rockind 51:57
And that's making so much sense that you're not going to look at me and say, Carin, go do this, right? You're not going to say, Okay, first go call this person and rather helping me identify the places that I haven't even seen.

Yseult Polfliet 52:10
Exactly.

Carin Rockind 52:11
Right. I was talking to my own therapist a couple of days ago. And we were talking about my dad, actually, speaking of daddy issues. She's was like how did your dad get like that? So then we start talking about my grandfather. And I told her how my grandfather was, may he rest in peace, a card carrying member of the NRA. And she said what Jewish person has she's Jewish, too. She said, What Jewish person has a gun? And I'm gonna be honest, I said, a Jewish person who was actually afraid of black people. And I hadn't thought about that in so long. And it's like, wow. That had to cuz it was only two generations ago, that fear had to seep into my world.

Yseult Polfliet 53:00
Yeah,

Carin Rockind 53:01
- unknowingly.

Hannah Summerhill 53:02
Mm hmm. Right.

Carin Rockind 53:04
And so even just that conversation a couple of days ago, helping me look and say, Alright, where is that fear in me? You know, I'm like, I'm not racist. You know what I mean? Like, no, now I'm in a different place. Looking in the mirror, where Where is his fear in me?

Hannah Summerhill 53:20
Right

Carin Rockind 53:21
So I can see what you're talking about, and how powerful that is, it's always more powerful when we come to it on our own.

Hannah Summerhill 53:27
Right, thank you for sharing that. Because it's so vulnerable. And we love when our students get to that place where they can say, you know, I do have these fears. You know, when one woman shared in our class, I recognize that when I walk past a group of black men, I'm scared. And we Yseult you know, help to reframe it for her. How do you think that makes, you know, them feel, you know, they can feel that fear? And also, like, you know, I'm married to a black man, Yseult has two black brothers, you know, how do we feel hearing that, that the people that we love are scary, you know, or that, you know, anything could happen to them because of that fear. So, our fear, it definitely gets passed down, you know, whether you believe in epigenetics or just, you know, that conditioning through behavior, but it also has an impact on the people around us, like our fear impacts others, it impacts those that were afraid of.

Carin Rockind 54:31
Of course. Yeah, yeah. And just even realizing, you might not even realize that you have fear. Right.

Yseult Polfliet 54:41
And it's also like, important to realize that like, black people historically, are not the one that have hurt anyone, like they are the ones that got kill. The only fear that you feel as a white person is that black people will start acting like how white people treated us.

Carin Rockind 54:59
Yeah.

Yseult Polfliet 55:00
Right. So it's not so much that we are intrinsically violent people that are going to do anything is because you know, you know, what has been done to black people, you know, what has been done to minority people. And so now you sit in the fear that one day they'll wake up and start being like you, but nothing in history has shown that black society acts like white society, even when they are on top and in power. So it's like this. So it's such a, it's such a lie. And it comes from the idea of, you know, you have an eye for an eye, but it's not an eye for an eye, no one is trying to do that, like black people want to live, survive and thrive. They don't want to go into that, that that space of wanting to hurt you. And all minorities, minorities just want to thrive, they want to live, they want their -

Carin Rockind 55:54
people just want to just want to live, they want to just enjoy their life -

Yseult Polfliet 55:59
- go and kill you. Like it's not, that's not a reality at all. Like when I do this work, it's not because I want revenge, or when I feel the rage, it's not because I want revenge it's because I do not want my children, God willing, to experience the same things that I experienced, because it makes no sense that they have to go through what I have to go through. And the only reason why they're gonna go through that is because you as a person, haven't done your work to raise your children better, so that they are more conscious white future adults and children as well, because I experienced racism that five, so it's like, kids are racist, too, because their parents are racists.

Carin Rockind 56:41
Right, because that's what they're hearing in the home. Man. That's what I knew when, in the summer, when I was eight months pregnant. It was, okay, I have a whole new level of responsibility. I have responsibility for myself, and I have responsibility to raise an antiracist human.

Hannah Summerhill 57:00
Mm hmm.

Carin Rockind 57:01
Right. So it's like, game game up. Right?

Hannah Summerhill 57:04
Yeah.

Carin Rockind 57:05
Right. Yseult, didn't it just happen where you went to a shoe store, and someone assumed that you worked there? Yeah, even that is racism!

Yseult Polfliet 57:16
Yeah, of course. And like, that's the interpersonal level. And that's like, assuming that like a person that is black in a space where there's service is in service of you of you. And it's like, and that's what we were talking earlier. It's like, these ideas that we have of people, and what they do in life, and how they carry themselves is absolutely imperative to challenge and still not all black people around you are there to serve you. And now and I, God knows that if you know me in real life, I look so not part of like a cop. Like I don't look like I'm wearing a uniform. And so you would you really have to be so into yourself and in your mind, not to see that I cannot be working there. I have so much jewelry and I have hats and scarves. And like I have like my own fashion sense that says Like, I don't work there, which there's nothing wrong. But it's like you didn't take a minute to look at that the person across from you does not work there. Like you didn't take the time to be acknowledgeable of your environment - of your environment. And you didn't look at me, you looked at my color skin. Because if you had taken five seconds to look at me, you would have realized like, Nah, she doesn't look like they all wore aprons. Like you know, they all wore like a certain color. Two seconds. And this I would have I never find myself in that situation. I never assume that even sometimes even when I feel like someone works there. I asked them. Do you work here Oh, yeah. Because I don't want -

Carin Rockind 58:52
I can't imagine not asking somebody like I don't care if I would go up to Hannah. I mean anybody and say Do you work here? Not just make the assumption, but that's something that happened to you and wouldn't happen to Hannah or I, right? I mean, that is racism. Just calling it what what it is. So I could talk to the two of you forever, and you have so much good information. And already I've opened up I've never shared that story with anybody. So I thank you for giving me a safe space to share it.

Yseult Polfliet 59:26
Thank you for sharing.

Carin Rockind 59:27
Yeah, it it. It was scary. I thought Am I really going to tell the story? And I thought yeah, I have to tell this story. Right not because not being a good white person, but for my own. I really am feeling like I need to look in the mirror more. Right. And again, not I don't need any medal. I don't need any. This is not about being a good white person. I really mean I want to be respectful and I want to raise my son differently. That's it. Alright, so you guys know that we're all about women living their purpose on this podcast. I mean, you guys are young. It takes a lot of courage for you to be doing what you're doing. So I want to hear for everyone out there who's listening in like, Alright, okay, well, they can do it, they can start a podcast, they can follow their purpose because fill in the blank, maybe they are fearless or whatever, like, I want to hear what each of you or both of you together needed to do in order to follow this purpose.

Hannah Summerhill 1:00:30
Oh, my goodness, well, for me, I quit my corporate job. Last year, I worked in magazines for about 13 years and had a great salary and had benefits. And you know, I worked at Vogue, I worked at Cosmo, I worked at all the fancy places. And I did not feel fulfilled at all. And I there was a deadness inside of me. And last year, I we'd already started Kinswomen, but I was still working full time. And I came home one day and I said, I need to quit my job tomorrow. It made no sense. But I was like, This scares me. But it just feels right. And I've learned to just follow those urges -

Carin Rockind 1:01:08
Yes!!

Hannah Summerhill 1:01:09
- we started an anti racism company, you know, a year and a half ago, never imagining that people would care as much as they do right now, and that we'd be slightly ahead of the curve. Obviously, people of color have been doing this work for a very long time. But we never could imagine that people would care as much as they do. And we could make this into a real business. And here we are.

Carin Rockind 1:01:33
This is what I love about purpose. It's like you heard the call, and you were brave enough to answer it.

Hannah Summerhill 1:01:38
Yes.

Carin Rockind 1:01:39
Right. Like, you're like, I just have to do this and

Hannah Summerhill 1:01:41
I was just scared.

Carin Rockind 1:01:43
Like, it's often not gonna make sense, right? Like, leave Vogue fancy magazine life, like, What are you talking about? Now I have to follow this purpose. And then it's as if you were prophetic. You knew, inside of you, you knew this work had to be done. And even if you didn't know that it was going to come about some part of you maybe did know, at some point, the world's gonna wake up and really, we're gonna do this. What about you, Yseult?

Yseult Polfliet 1:02:08
For me, it's, I think that if I have to be really honest, is, you know, when you do things that makes you really feel fulfilled, it's amazing. But the truth is, my personal journey with everything that I do in my life is that I have to fake fake it to make it. So it's like I struggle with imposter syndrome. And I struggle with like, feeling like inadequate all the time. And I would never want anyone to look at me and be like, wow, you, you know, you're figuring it out. Or you you know, you're so confident. Like I'm absolutely my confidence is it's like, it's a thing that I forced out. And I'm becoming more and more one with it. But it's not something that I felt this like maybe a year ago, or even like two years ago, three years ago, it's like, it's something that I've been working on. And I think that when you're doing something that you really love, or you're even in the space trying to exist, it's it's helpful to know that everyone experienced this like imposter syndrome. And, and I would say that everyone experiences it, but it's like pushing through it and not letting that voice takeover that really makes the difference.

Carin Rockind 1:03:21
Yes. Yeah. So important. So important, because, I mean, raise your hand if you have imposter syndrome. One of the things I always remember with imposter syndrome is, you know, Liz Gilbert, who wrote Eat, Pray Love and Big Magic. And, you know, Julia Roberts played her in a movie. And I think if Julia Roberts plays you in a movie, like, you know, you're quote unquote, successful by society standards. She writes in Big Magic that she's still afraid, right? She still has the self doubt. It's like, well, if she still has it, then we all have permission. It's normal. And I love that. You're gonna feel it, and it's okay. And you're gonna fake it until you make it or fake it until you become it. I love Amy. Amy. Amy Cuddy says you're going to fake it until you become it, which I love. The two of you are really beautiful humans. And I so so. So appreciate this conversation. I appreciate your vulnerability. I appreciate you allowing me to be vulnerable and open and messy in this conversation. And everyone. Go listen to The Kinswomen. Obviously, these are incredible women who are making a difference. So thank you, thank you. Thank you for coming on.

Yseult Polfliet 1:04:37
Thank you so much for having

Carin Rockind 1:04:39
My pleasure. My truly, truly, truly a pleasure.

Hannah Summerhill 1:04:42
Thank you, Carin This was an honor. And so nice to meet you. So nice to connect with you.

Carin Rockind 1:04:48
I know you too. So I really could talk to the two of you forever. I know people are gonna want to follow your podcasts are gonna wanna follow the two of you. It's The Kinswomen Podcast. Really Check it out. The conversations are real. These two women are incredible. I mean, there's so much we didn't even get into that, that we could. And so I do this thing that I like to do with all my guests. At the end of every podcast episode. It's called the purpose power play round. And it's when I asked my guests random questions. Are you guys down?

Hannah Summerhill 1:05:19
Yeah.

Carin Rockind 1:05:20
Okay, so I'll, I'll kind of ping pong back and forth between the two of you. All right. Okay, Yseult when you were a little girl, what did you say you wanted to be?

Yseult Polfliet 1:05:29
I think I wanted to be a tree.

Hannah Summerhill 1:05:32
A tree?

Carin Rockind 1:05:38
What do you think that means? I love it.

Yseult Polfliet 1:05:42
I love trees. I think trees are life. So

Carin Rockind 1:05:45
Beautiful. Perfect.

Hannah Summerhill 1:05:46
I love that so much.

Carin Rockind 1:05:47
What about you, Hannah? Do you remember?

Hannah Summerhill 1:05:49
I wanted to be an actress.

Carin Rockind 1:05:51
Mm hmm. And look at you. Now you're in front of a microphone all the time.

Hannah Summerhill 1:05:58
And I get to be myself, which I think is even better!

Carin Rockind 1:06:02
Way better way better. I always think somehow, as adults, there's some tiny little piece of truth about what we want it to be as a child. It doesn't have to be the exact thing. But there's like a tiny bit of something in there like Yseult being life. I've known you for all of an hour. And I already have that sense for you that that's, you know, how you are and who you are. Right? It's so cool. All right. Second question. Hannah. You mentioned a book that is a must get. So we'll put that in the show notes. What about you, Yseult? What's a book we all must read.

Hannah Summerhill 1:06:39
And I love to read fiction. So one of my favorite books that I read, and I'm reading the second part, this is a trilogy, but The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. If you love fiction, if you like crime, it's like really, really cool. And then the American Production movie is really really good as well.

Carin Rockind 1:06:59
Hmm. I haven't seen it. And I'll have to give the book another try. I opened it years ago, and I wasn't able to get into it. But maybe I'll give it another shot.

Yseult Polfliet 1:07:09
Yeah, the main character is really cool. So you should

Carin Rockind 1:07:12
Okay. All right. We'll ask another question. How about this 10 years from now? What's one thing you want to see in your own life?

Hannah Summerhill 1:07:22
I want to see children.

Yseult Polfliet 1:07:27
Yeah, I, I want to see like, I want to be happy. And also I want to see myself very successful in what we're doing right now.

Hannah Summerhill 1:07:44
Same.

Carin Rockind 1:07:48
It is done. It is done. It is done. It is done. That's it, period done. All right. Last question. What's one thing you want woman to know?

Hannah Summerhill 1:08:01
I think for me is that this work never ends. But it's really based in love.

Carin Rockind 1:08:08
Thank you.

Yseult Polfliet 1:08:11
I'd love i'd love everyone to know that. It's important to apply pressure when you are in the situation of having a voice and not shrink yourself. But absolutely apply - Apply pressure to bring change and movement.

Carin Rockind 1:08:37
Thank you. Yes, lots of snappy and Were you always know when a woman says something good because the other women go mmmm.

Hannah Summerhill 1:08:48
That's like a soul sound.

Yseult Polfliet 1:08:50
Mm hmm.

Carin Rockind 1:08:53
Alright, so you guys have a course coming up? Tell us about it.

Hannah Summerhill 1:08:57
Yes, we have a course starting January 25, called the Course for Anti Racist Entrepreneurs. And it's for business owners, content creators, coaches, who value allyship and anti racism, but want to make sure that they're authentically connecting with their black, indigenous and clients of color, and also expanding their audience authentically. So we saw a lot of promises made back in June, from coaches and brands and even on podcasts, I saw a lot of episodes dedicated to racism, and then it all kind of died out. And this class is for people who don't really know what to do next, but they have those values inside of them. They want to make sure that they're communicating to their clients and customers authentically and able to grow their audience in a more diverse way. So that starts on the 25th and you can find all the info on kinswomenpodcast.com.

Carin Rockind 1:09:56
Awesome, and we have that in the show notes. Is it online. Obviously online or COVID, is it eight weeks? Is it tell us a little

Yseult Polfliet 1:10:03
Yes,it's three weeks, it's three, two hours in sessions. And we'll be spending time with every student's brand. So we'll be going through their marketing materials, anything that they'd like to share with us and giving them really concrete tactical things that they can do to improve their brand. But we'll also be getting really deep into all the stuff that we discussed today, too.

Carin Rockind 1:10:27
Awesome. Anything you want to add about that, Yseult?

Yseult Polfliet 1:10:31
No, I'm excited to see our new students and it's always fun to be able to be transparent and genuine and discipleship journey.

Carin Rockind 1:10:41
Hmm. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. So all that information is in the show notes, definitely want to check it out. I'm gonna check it out myself and see if I can make those dates. Because it sounds like something we all need. So I want to check that out. And to all of you out there, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the PurposeGirl Podcast. We hope that you loved this episode. If you did, head on over to Apple podcasts, leave your five star review. It takes you 60 seconds to leave your one sentence your five stars. And that is how women all over the world are finding the PurposeGirl Podcast. That's how we're changing the world, one woman at a time. Of course, you want to make sure that you are getting my newsletter. I've got some exciting stuff happening in 2021 including something really exciting coming up in March. So you want to make sure you're on it. Go to purposegirl.com and if you're not yet in the PurposeGirls Facebook group, what are you waiting for? Get your butt in there now so that I can lift you up every single day. With that, my love, may you live purposefully. Now you love yourself, and may you love life. Bye for now.